Talkitup has been closed since August 2009. I leave this archived version up for some of the juicy goodness contained herein. Computers suck - go outside and play. Full Version link keeps you in the archive. Contact

TalkitUp - A Debian Support Forum Debian General
Pages: 12
Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: June 25, 2009, 07:05:41 AM
I have been thinking about this for a week now, Squeeze including mono by default (tomboy) and I am still not sure how I feel about this.  Maybe I'm writing it to work out my thoughts, I dunno.

Not happy, though.  I tried to get answers last year at some asshole mono developer's blog.  Instead of answers he deleted my 2 comments and signed me up for a zillion mailing lists.  What an asshole.  So there's that other bad mono taste, too.

Novel, Miguel De Microsoft bitch, the here today gone tomorrow pop-culture developers, Microsoft -- all of them enemies to freedom, caretakers of the dollar.  Most people haven't a clue and I guess that's OK - until freedom is on the line.

There needs to be a technology-civics course taught in high schools.  Sheesh, is regular civics even taught anymore?

Although "freedom" was never the initial draw to Linux for me it cetainly has become a very important tenet of my continued usage of it.  Anyone with any sense should feel the same way.  OK -- I take that back, anyone that cares at all should feel the same way.  Like me before I realized it, most people could care less about (software) freedom and most people are very selfish and petty.

Anyway, I even tried to like Tomboy some time ago.  Pfft.  I don't.  There are other apps that do it for me.  It's not even for the inclusion of mono - I tried it on its merit and it didn't impress me.  Maybe it impresses you - rockin'.

At 42 I tolerate nothing anymore that effects me in negative ways.  Neighbors, software, general assholes, loser friends, loser family, incompetent teachers with bad attitudes...nothing.  lol, too old to be "cool".  Mono effects us in potentially insidious ways, negative ways.  Mono is likely the Devil in a blue dress but most of us have wood so we can't notice our throats being slit.

To date nobody, especially some of the more gung-ho and arrogant mono developers - nobody has been able to ascertain whether mono is "safe" to use or not.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that legal ambiguity with Microsoft and some of the other players I already mentioned = trouble.  Typically BIG trouble.  It's highly irresponsible for Debian and any other Linux distribution to include mono apps by default in their distribution.  Givving people what they want is no excuse, no free-pass.  lol, the law won't see it your way.

Likely I won't support any distribution that is putting its userbase in trouble or potential trouble.  Of course, "endusers" likely will not be sued, but reliance upon a program could terminate and could have negative consequences.  Try taking Quickbooks away from some small busininess owning Windows user, as an example of being reliant upon software.

If the future of GNU/Linux is including such apps then I want no part of it.  I stay with Linux because it assumes nothing of me, stays the hell out of my way, protects me, etc.  However, jumping on some Microsoft coat-tail and jamming potentially dangerous code down my throat is a thing I won't tolerate.

In this world it's easy to cater to the whimsical sensibilities of others to achieve popularity, lol, look at that loser perez hilton.  lol, I wouldn't even know who that joke of a Human was if I didn't see news on news.google.com.  (s)he's a terrific example of an asshole becoming popular by catering to the whimsy of idiots.

I won't let myself become a chump.  I don't use mono apps because they are untrustworthy.  If you're using mono apps I don't know what to tell you.  You're part of the problem, though. 

Silence implies permission or acceptance, so does standing in line with the Devil.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: alioop Date: June 25, 2009, 07:42:11 PM
So what is one to do; Abandon Gnome/Debian proper all together? I don't know if I could do that. I mean, I like Debian. And I like Gnome. It's my main DE/OS. Wouldn't one have the same problem with Ubuntu, Mint and many others?

I'm not a KDE fan. But doesn't KDE also have some issues itself?

Where do we go from here? And while I'm asking, why does hardcore, freedom loving Debian, of all distros, still include Mono if it's that bad?

There has been some derogatory as well as some positive post recently on Mono. Conducting my own amateur research, I don't know what the hell to believe anymore.

P.S. About that loser Perez Hilton... I don't even want to discuss him.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: June 25, 2009, 11:04:48 PM
Yeah -- I dunno.

If I have such a take on a thing I really don't have a damned thing to do with then I'm taking life a little too seriously, I think.  Maybe time to step back and reaffirm that it's just an OS.  It's just a friggen computer.  I got a life.

But then, no way, man - scratch all that.   Of course I'm involved.  You, we...it's because one cannot help but to get swept up into open source.  That's a big deal.  It's actually something that a body could believe in, could defend.  Proprietary belongs to the few that make it, hawk it.  It's their business to believe in it and to defend it. 

A questionable inclusion such as mono gives me the willies.  I'm not saying any thinking person is either with me or again' me, either.  Pfft.  I'm just sayin' for me, the willies.

I look all around me and there's shit everywhere.  People acting like shit, and for what?  Companies acting like shit, governments -- just acting like big nasty steaming piles.  Even though there are some less than savory characters in and around open source, it is as it is, an unfettered thing winding through all the shit.

When I turn on my computer and Microsoft has to give me permissioon to do a thing that's the time I know there is no choice for myself but to go running to open source.  Which I have, years ago.  When I read about the ugly that those at Microsoft do in and around the industry I cannot help but be moved a little and not to the good, either.  It's badlands they offer and nothing else.  Always was and they'll fight like music execs to make sure it always is.

You really think I want something that could cause some pretty significant open source projects to be tossed, ass to the wind, right into Microsoft Badland Central?  lol, it's just a computer, man, but it's my friggen computer.

I say back off, Jack, no trespassing.  Get the hell off my lawn!

As for Debian...they make a thing and we either use it or not.  At the end of the day that's what it's all about.  What pisses me off is that I have been disagreeing with more than one or 2 decisions the projects has made the past few years.  Trouble is twofold, as I'm no software's bitch I use what I use no apologies.  I'd run Solaris tomorrow if I had a mind to and if it did it for me.  Lol, even Windows if it didn't suck so completely and on so many levels.  Nuh, Debian does it for me.  lol, like a co-dependent relationship, bad medicine but you just can't pull away.

Oof.

But c'mon.  Debian is still a thing one could build form the ground up and make their own completely kickass custom desktop.  Or server, or whatever.  That's cool right there.  That's a big draw.  Oh, and Debian's annoying stability.  What a pain in the balls.....yaaaaaaawn.  Boooooring.  lol, gimme that all day though, right!?  It's a rock. 

People say to use so and so GNU/Linux distribution.  Baah.  I got sick of trying them all a long time ago.  They all suck.  Lol, why do you think perfectly resasonable people can write scathing critiques of them?  Because they friggen suck!  Especially from some Windows chump.  Plenty of GNU/Linux distributions are very handy and very stable.  We all know even the worst of them beats **cough** Windows pretty much all day but when you're not 12 years old or some dweeb with more time to kill than sense and you want to run Linux, you pretty much run Debian or 2 or 3 others and that's all.

So it's not a question of whether I'll dump Debian as some form of lame protest when Squeeze releases containing that kissing disease, nossir.  It's a question of which platform next if indeed I decide to abandon Debian becasue this is the last decision I disagree with that I can take from the project.

If you've lasted this far you can see that no less than serious thought has gone into this and will continue to go into this.  Should mono be proven safe from any BS from Microsoft, on any level, then whoopie!! It's a moot issue and we all can go on never thinking about it again.  Right on.  But nobody has or can say that this is the case.  It's been years with lots of development occuring, lots of programs created.  Lots of people using these things.

To end users it's likely just a matter of not being able to use an app anymore should mono prove malicious, and or maybe some development in areas discontinues or maybe even innovation.  But, to the end user it'll likely remain unknown.

I got bigger problems than some software BS though.  Who's gonna babysit Saturday!?!?

lol -- try to have fun.  I'm turning this thing off.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: June 29, 2009, 06:29:07 AM
If i say it nobody cares, if RMS says it, discussion is endless, so...

RMS says it

And then there's some tool at Ubuntu that politicizes his statement of "acceptance".

sarcasmThis is what I'm talking about - clarity!./sarcasm

**sigh**


Re: Squeeze +mono By: alioop Date: July 01, 2009, 12:22:40 PM
See? This is what I mean. Now RMS is saying C# is bad too? WTF!?

"RMS: The problem is not unique to Mono; any free implementation of C# would raise the same issue. The danger is that Microsoft is probably planning to force all free C# implementations underground some day using software patents."

I'm not that deep into all of the guts of Linux or any other OS for that matter. So I'll keep on using Debian with Mono. If things get really bad, I'll make a change then. Until that happens, I'll hang in there.

Goddamn it! I like Debian. I really do. So why change? Is this like the political naysayers? Are we to keep an eye on the black helicopters and the men in black spying on us? Really?

I'm an end user. I'm not a developer, I'm not a programmer. I'm just a plane user. When it comes to the nut cutting , a plain  Linux user. I don't know about all of this crap. I don't want to know. Should I be concerned? Maybe. Maybe not.




Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 02, 2009, 07:06:11 AM
Don't sweat it, man.  Pfft - it's just a friggen computer.

Right?
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 02, 2009, 08:00:52 AM
It is right and true that Debian is taking shit for this.  Who cares aout lesser distros; Debian is the important one.  Ubuntu, for it's popularity, Debian heritage, and thus its current importance, will take more shit now, too.

Debian and Ubuntu's statment, which is weak-ass.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: ColonelPanik Date: July 02, 2009, 06:49:55 PM
Early days.  MafiaSoft will eat it self.  But not before spending a few
bucks fighting anything that infringes on it's mono-poly.

To quote Dan Blocker, "Stay Lose".
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 06, 2009, 06:30:01 AM
In related news Ogg Theora is dropped as the codec for Html 5 video.  Pfft.  Apple says something about "uncertain patent landscape".

Hmmm, where have I seen that completely ignored before?  I wonder.
Re: Squeeze +mono: Microsoft issues "Community Promise" By: machiner Date: July 07, 2009, 09:38:38 AM
OK -- some decent news.  Not for the "promise", but for the clarity.  It's always been about clarity and today is the first time I have seen something alluding to such.

From this article it appears as if mono implementation in Debian (or, gnu/linux in general) will become a non-issue.  We'll see how this pans-out, though.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: alioop Date: July 07, 2009, 05:17:51 PM
This cinches for me. If MS (and Debian too) says it's OK, then it's OK with me.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 08, 2009, 10:17:32 AM
Well, OK -- for you.

This is telling.  I wrote that we needed to see how this "pans out".  Clearly, this is all still in motion.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 08, 2009, 10:45:48 AM
edited again because -- read some of these.
Re: Squeeze +mono By: useResa Date: July 09, 2009, 02:19:08 AM
From what I understand from the entire story is that it is basically all about a matter of principals. To what extend is something considered open source and what is not. And to what extend one is willing to implement (possible) proprietary code into an open source distribution/application.

The information on the www goes -- IMHO -- from left to right. Some say it is moving in the right direction while others say it is a hoax.

The bottom line is that as an end user I want a functional OS that is safe and that I can (greatly) control. Unfortunately AFAIK mono is currently the only development that does allow .NET applications to be used in a Linux environment. So is there an alternative?

BTW: This is what Richard Stallman had to say on this issue (link obtained through twitter).
Re: Squeeze +mono By: machiner Date: July 09, 2009, 03:43:15 PM
Yeah -- well, this promise from Microsoft is a fine thing, sure.  It takes some legal ambiguity out of the mix but that's only ever been point 1.

Point 2 is why?  The comments here are largely still relevent.  And this is all well and good.  But....where are the apps?  What apps don't I already have the native Linux ability to run?

OK -- cool, mono, .net introduce interoperability.  Right on.  Show of hands of all us us GNU/Linux users that want to run VB apps on our boxes....

**crickets**

There's the "at least one version behind" catch-up mono does, too.  So we all get to wait, still......for righteous interoperability. (?)

Yaaay!

It's fine that the patent BS is null now.  Really, there's some details, but - this could be moot now and that's all many wanted.  Many more wonder why, what's the use?

Tomboy and Beagle and those couple other mono apps (MONO apps) we can all use to our hearts content now.  I guess.  Right on if they float your boat (like you cared anyway, lol, right?) but show me a .net app I can run on my Debian machine.  Show me one that gives me something I don't already have, that's novel enough for me to even want to install mono for this .net app and then we can talk.

How many years has it been?  7, 8, 9?

Point 1 is likely moot now, point 2 still stands.  And this is getting terrifically boring for all of us, ey?  lol.  Ya.

SMF Archive Funded by SMF For Free Free Forum Hosting (smfforfree.com)
SMF Hacks(smfhacks.com)